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	<title>Comments on: I believe, not</title>
	<link>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/</link>
	<description>Trance Music, Philosophy and Politics. The official homepage of philosopher artist: Illusive Mind.</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 07:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Illusive Mind</title>
		<link>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-15</link>
		<author>Illusive Mind</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jan 2005 03:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-15</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment.

In terms of rationality in holding a belief that something is true, well to my mind, if you admit that it may be impossible to know ‘truth’ then it is irrational to say that you know the ‘truth’. Note however this does not make it irrational to suppose that you might or that it is possible that you know the truth. There is a fine line between the two.

I have not read “The problem of Pain” and I am sure there are many more arguments on both sides that would vary in degrees of convincingness. I think that you are in the best position you can be, not knowing what to believe. Neither do I, although I constantly have to catch myself from believing in scepticism or nihilism. I think that if you give up searching for a truth to believe in then you can bear witness to the fullness of reality from which all truths and their opposites can be derived.

Peace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment.</p>
<p>In terms of rationality in holding a belief that something is true, well to my mind, if you admit that it may be impossible to know ‘truth’ then it is irrational to say that you know the ‘truth’. Note however this does not make it irrational to suppose that you might or that it is possible that you know the truth. There is a fine line between the two.</p>
<p>I have not read “The problem of Pain” and I am sure there are many more arguments on both sides that would vary in degrees of convincingness. I think that you are in the best position you can be, not knowing what to believe. Neither do I, although I constantly have to catch myself from believing in scepticism or nihilism. I think that if you give up searching for a truth to believe in then you can bear witness to the fullness of reality from which all truths and their opposites can be derived.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-14</link>
		<author>Anonymous</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2005 10:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-14</guid>
		<description>I entirely agree with your observations on beliefs/faith of the sort I think you mean. 
Especially .. quote ..'I saw that the people who walked into the first lecture held the same views at the last lecture. I saw that their beliefs were reinforced, no matter what."
I have seen the same thing. And the cleverer the person the more they can come up with clever reasons to explain or justify their belief.

 I can say too, it was a huge emotional upheaval for this person  to  change a deep  religious conviction ... to admit it must give way to a greater view. 
 It has not helped a lot to repeat the process upon  that presumed greater view! 

Nor is it just religious views.  I have become close to some fundamentalists who show that side, but there is another who prides herself on her atheisim and general superior clear thinking who cannot truly 'see' any arguement that supports the opposite view.
I feel there is, as there was with myself, a REAL value that comes to a person from the conviction - either way. 
 However, it is not entirely irrational to have such convictions that resist immediate arguement, since so many thought and ideas that first seem valid, are on a really close look over a period,  not so convincing, .. did not take account of this or that. 
Not that this guarantees that what we end up believing is true. It's just the best that out brain can accept at that time. 

Just a note about the goodnes of God and suffering. If you have not seen it, read  CS LEWIS's  'the problem of pain'
He states the reasons for the common atheist position (that he previously held) more fully and clearly than most, then explains how he as a christian answers it.   By, for example, defining more clearly what we mean by 'goodness' and how that might apply to a "god'. 
They are at least answers you do not usually hear. 
 
For myself I do not know what to belief.  I think a (very) few things are certain, but where they may lead in understanding  the universe I cannot decide. 
There are several concepts/models  of the univers which COULD be true .. at least they could not be disproved by logic.   But i fear I will expire well before I settle it for myself.

 good wishes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I entirely agree with your observations on beliefs/faith of the sort I think you mean.<br />
Especially .. quote ..&#8217;I saw that the people who walked into the first lecture held the same views at the last lecture. I saw that their beliefs were reinforced, no matter what.&#8221;<br />
I have seen the same thing. And the cleverer the person the more they can come up with clever reasons to explain or justify their belief.</p>
<p> I can say too, it was a huge emotional upheaval for this person  to  change a deep  religious conviction &#8230; to admit it must give way to a greater view.<br />
 It has not helped a lot to repeat the process upon  that presumed greater view! </p>
<p>Nor is it just religious views.  I have become close to some fundamentalists who show that side, but there is another who prides herself on her atheisim and general superior clear thinking who cannot truly &#8217;see&#8217; any arguement that supports the opposite view.<br />
I feel there is, as there was with myself, a REAL value that comes to a person from the conviction - either way.<br />
 However, it is not entirely irrational to have such convictions that resist immediate arguement, since so many thought and ideas that first seem valid, are on a really close look over a period,  not so convincing, .. did not take account of this or that.<br />
Not that this guarantees that what we end up believing is true. It&#8217;s just the best that out brain can accept at that time. </p>
<p>Just a note about the goodnes of God and suffering. If you have not seen it, read  CS LEWIS&#8217;s  &#8216;the problem of pain&#8217;<br />
He states the reasons for the common atheist position (that he previously held) more fully and clearly than most, then explains how he as a christian answers it.   By, for example, defining more clearly what we mean by &#8216;goodness&#8217; and how that might apply to a &#8220;god&#8217;.<br />
They are at least answers you do not usually hear. </p>
<p>For myself I do not know what to belief.  I think a (very) few things are certain, but where they may lead in understanding  the universe I cannot decide.<br />
There are several concepts/models  of the univers which COULD be true .. at least they could not be disproved by logic.   But i fear I will expire well before I settle it for myself.</p>
<p> good wishes.</p>
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		<title>By: Illusive Mind</title>
		<link>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-13</link>
		<author>Illusive Mind</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2005 08:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-13</guid>
		<description>You’re right in that I’m using ‘belief’ in a specific manner. I think believing something usually refers to two different ideas, that of accepting the truth and conviction of something or placing trust or confidence in something. An example of the latter “I believe in you”, “I believe it’s warm”. These kinds of beliefs are easily subject to change as trusting in something does not mean you are convinced by it.

For the purposes of distinguishing the stronger kinds of beliefs, I would refrain from calling these kinds of mental actions beliefs at all. I say, “I think it’s warm”, or “I know it’s warm”. The difference being, thoughts and knowledge imply imperfection and do not entail conviction, beliefs to my mind do not. It is about admitting at any moment that you may be completely and utterly mistaken. I agree that this kind of knowledge is necessary for were I to doubt the existence of temperature I might be scalded by boiling hot water. 

As to ‘foundational’ beliefs necessary to the game of philosophy, I disagree. I think you can set up premises to be supposed true for the purposes of various games within philosophy but that this is distinct from accepting a particular view as the truth.

I hold no such conviction in the existence of an external world, it is a leap of faith like any other, but I will quite happily suppose its existence (and the people in it) so that I may buy bread from the supermarket and have conversations with people, does this mean I accepts its existence as ‘the truth’? I think not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You’re right in that I’m using ‘belief’ in a specific manner. I think believing something usually refers to two different ideas, that of accepting the truth and conviction of something or placing trust or confidence in something. An example of the latter “I believe in you”, “I believe it’s warm”. These kinds of beliefs are easily subject to change as trusting in something does not mean you are convinced by it.</p>
<p>For the purposes of distinguishing the stronger kinds of beliefs, I would refrain from calling these kinds of mental actions beliefs at all. I say, “I think it’s warm”, or “I know it’s warm”. The difference being, thoughts and knowledge imply imperfection and do not entail conviction, beliefs to my mind do not. It is about admitting at any moment that you may be completely and utterly mistaken. I agree that this kind of knowledge is necessary for were I to doubt the existence of temperature I might be scalded by boiling hot water. </p>
<p>As to ‘foundational’ beliefs necessary to the game of philosophy, I disagree. I think you can set up premises to be supposed true for the purposes of various games within philosophy but that this is distinct from accepting a particular view as the truth.</p>
<p>I hold no such conviction in the existence of an external world, it is a leap of faith like any other, but I will quite happily suppose its existence (and the people in it) so that I may buy bread from the supermarket and have conversations with people, does this mean I accepts its existence as ‘the truth’? I think not.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-12</link>
		<author>Richard</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.illusive-mind.com/philosophy/i-believe-not/#comment-12</guid>
		<description>Interesting post.  You seem to be using the word 'belief' in an unusual way, however.  I believe it's fairly warm right now, but I don't have any great conviction in the fact, and would consider it quite open to revision were someone to show me evidence to the contrary (e.g. a thermometer).  One simply cannot live without beliefs (of the weaker sort described above) - they're what guide our actions.  But I do agree with you that open-mindedness is surely a virtue, and confirmation bias is an unfortunate psychological tendency we all must be wary of.

I'm not convinced that convictions are &lt;I&gt;always&lt;/I&gt; bad, however.  We might consider some small group of beliefs to be 'foundational' to the game of philosophy; a necessary starting point or set of rules which must be followed if we are to make sense to each other, and hope to make any philosophical progress.  I think that may be Wittgenstein's response to radical skepticism: conviction in the existence of an external world is one such foundational belief.

P.S. Regarding the free will theodicy, I've &lt;a HREF="http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%2Fpixnaps.blogspot.com%2F2004%2F08%2Fwhose-freedom.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;argued&lt;/A&gt; that it actually exacerbates the problem of evil!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post.  You seem to be using the word &#8216;belief&#8217; in an unusual way, however.  I believe it&#8217;s fairly warm right now, but I don&#8217;t have any great conviction in the fact, and would consider it quite open to revision were someone to show me evidence to the contrary (e.g. a thermometer).  One simply cannot live without beliefs (of the weaker sort described above) - they&#8217;re what guide our actions.  But I do agree with you that open-mindedness is surely a virtue, and confirmation bias is an unfortunate psychological tendency we all must be wary of.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not convinced that convictions are <i>always</i> bad, however.  We might consider some small group of beliefs to be &#8216;foundational&#8217; to the game of philosophy; a necessary starting point or set of rules which must be followed if we are to make sense to each other, and hope to make any philosophical progress.  I think that may be Wittgenstein&#8217;s response to radical skepticism: conviction in the existence of an external world is one such foundational belief.</p>
<p>P.S. Regarding the free will theodicy, I&#8217;ve <a HREF="http://www.blogger.com/r?http%3A%2F%2Fpixnaps.blogspot.com%2F2004%2F08%2Fwhose-freedom.html" rel="nofollow">argued</a> that it actually exacerbates the problem of evil!</p>
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